Holy Good Idea! You actually might have a compromise here AND, it cuts Ian out of the deal. Which I like.

The problem for your customers parking isn't the food trucks, its the fact the every one of your employees like every other business in town parks at metered spaces. Why should the food trucks have to park in private lots. You don't think the banks or pharmacies will want to get paid too? These business have zero interest in having trucks park in their lots just like you don't want them parked on Washington St.

PeoplePlease

$100 a day for a private spot. Let's use HBC as an example. Lets say 10 trucks occupy HMC a day at 100 per truck, this is 30k a month for the HBC given there are trucks every day of the week. I think Greg and the HBC would welcome 30k a month for spots not being used. Aside from HBC there are tons of other lots that could rake in 30k a month. You have no fees to pay the city ever!! For those that food truck every day here then it's better to corner the market and pay the fee from the city and move around in allowable spots. Most parking lots that are private are well far away from brick and mortars with food anyway. Takes trucks off the streets, reduces traffic and congestion. At this point maybe the food truckers can unite and come together and approach these places to see if a medium can be agreed upon?

Owen you make a fantastic point and what you say is already in the works. The city does offer businesses permits to park on washington street. Not that many people actually have these, most people who own or work at a place of business on washington street routinely feed the meters which is not allowed, they will be booted as well and many already have. I offer my customers free garage parking and or cab fare which i've done since the day I open, my concern for Washington Street is my fellow colleagues. There are also a handful of handicapped people who are allowed to park on washington street as well. The banks and pharmacies will charge $100 too, they'll make the same rate or perhaps some places may be less expensive or more expensive. The key factor here is the city, the brick and mortars, the food truckers and the lot owners (if they are thumbs up for this) must work together as a community. Working together is something Hoboken businesses and officials like to do, I see it done daily.

Owen

Not sure you live here in the community but now there is some interest in private lots letting you guys in fyi

Why would trucks want to park all the way over by the HBC? Why should trucks need to be "far away" from B&M anyway? Rory how about the trucks park in front of your business? If you think they will bring new customers to banks and gas stations couldn't that same reasoning be applied to your retail store?

I would highly doubt that the food truck owners would agree to park places like the Hoboken Business Center parking lot at 50 Harrison Street and even there I would think the small food vendor who pays rent in the HBC would object. The food trucks want to be on Washington Street and Sinatra drive because they want all the advantages of a high traffic area and none of the costs.

If the food trucks are not willing to pay their fair share of maintaining Hoboken then they should find some other place to to business.

Owen

HBC is an example, there are 40 plus lots in town to choose from. What if a truck was parked in a lot and you hired a person on a bike to do deliveries, increase your business, is there anything wrong with that. Lets remove HBC from equation for now, lets use Bank of America on 2nd and Hudson. 100 feet away from food place. $100 a day to stay thee, you get traffic 1 block from Washington Street and you have 2 people on bikes that deliver. You sign with seamless web and you get orders to your laptop in truck. Not a bad day at the office I would think.

Carol Marsh was also there.

They do pick different spots, they just don't pick different spots in this town. Go look up the Taco Truck's schedule. They are here 1 day a week for dinner most weeks. They will no longer be in town at all except to load up supplies after this proposal gets passed. Same thing will happen w/ any truck that only visits a few times a week. They will all take their trucks and sell product elsewhere, somewhere where the fees are less punitive. This proposal will do nothing but drive food trucks out of town.

I keep hearing about trucks having an advantage over B&M stores and let's just keep in mind the following:
- Trucks have no bathrooms, very limited menus and no liquor license or BYOB outside by the truck
- When the weather is bad, the customers stay home
- truck owners have high expenses including the cost of buying, operating and maintaining that truck. Tacking on a $5K fee on top of that just guarantees that anyone starting up a new food truck business goes where the fees are lower and the customers plentiful.
- It is not the fault of truck owners that landlords in this town charge obscene amounts for space or short order cooks who no habla can't cook decent food
- if you drive out all the competition w/ high fees and other barriers to entry, you just give landlords an excuse to demand higher rents
- never heard of the cops getting called to a food truck b/c there was a brawl, what expenses exactly are they incurring for the city that you expect them to pay for? I as a Hoboken resident contribute more than my fair share already so please don't use this excuse to justify driving food trucks out.

IMO, the only advantage food trucks have is a superior product. Perhaps the restaurants & bars need to start hiring people who can cook?

BTW - curious if anyone knows what NYC charges for a permit. Go look it up. You will be surprised how obscenely high our fee already is vs. theirs.

My comment last night about sitting in private parking lots would absolve any issues I feel. At the HBC you can place 5 trucks in 5 spaces of the 100 plus spaces their that are 60% in use on any give day. At the HBC you have a small kiosk in the lobby and Cal's Hot Dogs at the corner. Other than that the 100's of people that work there order delivery as there is no viable options within walking distance. Approaching the staff of HBC and offering a daily rate to use a spot should work, if you can rent an office you could in fact rent a space, or one would think. Rain sleet snow you call the truck and they bring it in for you. In fact have the trucks offer delivery from these private spots. Seems like a good solution. It's a benefit for both HBC and the people that work there, everyone wins. At other parking lots it would work as well, benefitting the business there already and the surrounding workers as well as the trucks.

I am all for food trucks negotiating their own deal w/ private lot owners if they so wish but if they do park in a private lot then the cost of the vendor license should be a token amount. And if they park in a private lot, it should be in any lot they can rent space in completely w/o restriction. The lot owner pays real estate taxes on that lot so by extension that means the food truck is paying taxes on the space they are leasing. Nobody is getting a free ride so no need to restrict how close trucks can be, how far they must be from B&M places and certainly no need to charge fees in the thousands of dollars. Make it a $5 vendor license b/c the parking lot owner is going to charge a hell of a lot more than that.

Red - did you look up this: "New York City has a cap of 5,100 trucks on the streets, but there are an estimated 10,000 vendors in operation — meaning most truck owners find themselves buying a permit on the black market. The cost of a black market permit can run as high as $15,000."

That's what a new permit really costs in NYC. The same article notes that the trucks get ticketed in NYC for illegal parking all the time, often with fines as high as $1,000 which the food trucks consider "a cost of doing business."

That is the real economics of operating a food truck in NYC. While I personally don't have the expertise to know what the best approach is, I think the fear that food trucks will disappear if these rules are imposed is unwarranted and the idea that a business has a "right" to operate virtually for free in a public right of way is simply incorrect.

I don't care what the black market cost is. The argument behind fees is to make truck owners pay part of the cost of city services. A black market premium has absolutely nothing to do w/ that argument.

And I've heard about the fines. Most truck owners only pay the fines that impact their license and ignore the rest. Some of those truck owners owe tens of thousands in unpaid fines.

Redrider

If it is on private property you don't even need the $5, you will be under the review of the health department and maybe for some weights and measures. No need for a $1250 parking fee either, it's free for the truck as long as they enter and leave town and only serve on private property. The owners of the lot should charge a per day fee perhaps, this way everyone has a chance to try different lots. If it was $100 a day and you had 10 trucks one day then a $1000 a day to occupy 10 sits not in use is a good pocket change money maker. With regards to zones Director Sachs said in some zones you would have to have a bidding process, but I think a lottery amongst all interested parties would be better. If you want to be on the cobblestones at Sinatra Park you put your name in a hat. Or along the waterfront in Maxwell Place.

I am completely against the parking fee. Just feed the meter and pay only when you happen to be in town. Those in town the most will pay the most. Those in town the least will pay the least. No need for a relatively high 1 time fee in addition to the vendor's license. Most of the trucks seem to park in places where the parking is free or they come on weekends when parking is enforced only on Saturdays so you are asking them to go from paying not all that much to paying another small fortune on top of the massive increase in the vendor's license. The parking fee is nothing but another barrier to entry & revenue grab. Plus I don't want to start getting in the habit of selling parking rights to any businesses in town at all. Next the developers will start demanding the same treatment for their construction vehicles, the bar owners after that, then the realtors, etc.....

Novak won't pick sides on this or anything else unless it is to his advantage.

He was not in attendance. The only non truck people I saw were Joe Branco, Michael Galluci, Clam Broth House owner with is wife, Benny Love who owns a truck and brink and mortar, handful of residents and Channel 9. I was able to inform other brick and mortar owners who were not in attendance via an email this morning so while Mr. Novak was not in attendance, last nights topics are in the inboxes of many currently.

Here's a thought - maybe there's an actual "chamber" of commerce. Like a real place instead of a virtual one. Maybe he's in there? Maybe he's locked in! Does someone know where the commerce chamber is?!?! It sounds like Mike Novak may be locked in!!! Call the fire department! Oh, wait, Mike's cronies voted down their overtime.

Looks like he may be stuck in there for a while.

Of course if the trucks could only operate on private property zoned for commercial businesses.

to piggyback on greenhaven, there would be 0 fees on private property, not a cent. Add 2 delivery guys on bikes and you increase your business 2,3,4 fold. One day the hammer will come down and delivery drivers will have to register with the city, but the bike guys won't. This is a feasible opportunity for everyone. I suggest the truckers form a union of sorts, elect a head official like Jason from Taco truck who already has a store in town and have him solicit the lots. I saw Jason speak last night, the guy is 1 IQ point away from being defined as a genius. I think this is the right play and i think the town should let it go and not go after them if they go on private property. Just as long they adhere to a promissory 100 feet rule to the brick and mortars, if this works, just lets em be.

Bullshit. A $15K cost for the right to sell hot dogs in NYC where during the work week the population density at lunchtime in midtown is 100x that in Hoboken might work. But in Hoboken when the town is mostly empty 5 days a week, it is a death sentence to start expecting trucks to pay $5K especially when those trucks aren't here every day like they are in NYC.

And your case on the fines was that food trucks consider the fines a cost of doing business. It isn't a cost of doing business unless the fine is actually paid!

Bottom line, I pay far more than my fair share of maintaining Hoboken and I want food trucks instead of crappy takeout infested w/ roaches.

Bottom line: Many people pay their fair share to maintain Hoboken some more and it is not unreasonable to ask the food trucks to do the same.

And at $5K, the city has gone so far past what is fair it isn't even funny. They are parking on a city street in a spot that is maybe 20 feet long. It isn't a condo we are taxing. We are taxing a parking spot and we are taxing them and only them for parking on city streets. And not only are we taxing them, we are taxing them at such a high rate that only those food trucks that plan on operating here daily will pay the tax and the rest will just go someplace else b/c it make sense to pay $5K to sell Tacos here in town 1 day a week at dinner. $50 says if you made every restaurant and bar in town report how much as a % of sales they pay in real estate taxes and compare it to how much these food trucks will pay under this proposed ordinance, you will find the food truck that is only in town a couple times a week is easily paying several times as much in taxes as the bars and restaurants. It is bullshit. Stop pretending that this is nothing but an excuse to drive successful businesses out of town in order to protect failing businesses that can't deliver decent product.

I tend to put my money where my mouth is. I boycott businesses who take positions I disagree with. Some are already on my black list. I'll keep it up and when people wonder why some of the trucks disappear, I'll remind them and suggest they do the same.

If the food truck owners wish to rent a spot on a private lot, that is on them to arrange.

redrider

So someone disagrees with you and you won't go patronize them? You don't agree with much in this town in the 3 years i've been here, you must shop in Jersey City all the time then.

Depends on the position and what they are doing but when it comes to food trucks, anyone I see advocating for driving them out of town and who habitually complains is a business I will no longer patronize. I am the customer and when it comes to how I spend my money, I am always right. You can do what you wish w/ your own cash.

Who is forcing them out? It's an ordinance by the town, adapted by the town, not the businesses. And most of the businesses want them here, they just want an even playing field. The people you claim to not patronize are the very people working with everyone on this, they just want a few favors like 100 ft rule and everyone spends their fair share. Who do you believe is forcing them out? can you name businesses directly? thanks

Frank - there is nothing convoluted about it. They are doing business in a public right of way - that is on property that belongs to someone else. If I were to set up a successful piercing and tatoo business directly in front of your house I suspect you would gain a greater understanding of the concept. Neither the tatoo busineess nor the food truck have a "right" to do this. It is a privilege that the City either decides to confer or not and if the privilege is given for less than FMV then the business is being subsidized. If the City were to auction off the 25 licenses my guess is that the price would be considerably higher and would actually reflect FMV so the subsidy would be completely removed. Maybe the solution is to call everyone's bluff and do that though personally I don't mind subsidizing the rate a bit if it allows for a greater diversity of product.

I can do math and I can go look up how much local businesses pay in real estate taxes and compare that to the $5K vendor tax you wish to impose. Then I can use a little common sense and compare how much business I think a food truck does in business during the short period it is in town vs. how much a B&M place does and see that we are hosing the food trucks if we ask them to pay $5K. For crying out loud, we are asking a food truck to pay almost half as much in fees as the entire building a place like Napoli's is in pays in real estate taxes and that food truck probably doesn't do as much business in a year as Napoli's does in a couple weeks. It makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

So the answer to my question Red is that you haven't a clue how much profit food trucks make, and therefore haven't a clue whether this fee will actually reduce the number of trucks. I prefer actual data to "common sense" particularly when my "common sense" yields a different answer than yours. What percentage of the Taco Truck's annual revenue is the fee? If its 20% then I don't think their business was likely to last anyway. If it's 5% then they can probably well afford to pay the fee since its a high margin low expense business even with the fee.

I like having the trucks here too but allowing them to use a public right of way for a commercial purpose for free (or close to it) is plain and simply a defacto pubic subsidy. If the alternative was losing all the trucks as you seem to believe, then I might agree with continuing to subsidize them with free access but I believe you are incorrect.

Greenhaven, there is a reason I do what I do for a living and you do what you do. My common sense tells me if a food truck has to pay more in fees as a % of sales than a pizza place pays in real estate taxes then your whole "they don't pay their fair share" argument bunk. What you are proposing, a punitive tax on food truck sales that will vastly exceed the level of real estate taxes the B&M competition pays. This is not asking food trucks to pay their fair share, it is asking food trucks to go to another town.

As for your whole public subsidy comment, we subsidize everyone that parks on city streets so I could care less if food trucks park on city streets. And since most seem to park at meters and all currently pay a $500 fee, that means we subsidize these vehicles less than 99% of the other vehicles that visit our town. Unless you plan on massive city wide parking fees in the hundreds or thousands of dollars for all vehicles, I just don't see the need to discriminate against 25 food trucks and not treat the thousands of other vehicles that park in town similarly.

Red - There is indeed a reason why you do what you do and I do what I do and that sort of comment makes the reason self-evident. We've established that you have no actual knowledge of the finances of the food truck businesses serving Hoboken. therefore you have absolutely no idea whether any will leave Hoboken, or even have their businesses materially effected by these fees. You,as a matter of your "common sense" are convinced to a virtual certainty that it will. I, based on my "common sense" believe that it likely will not but acknowledge, unlike you,that I don't actually know. That's why I'd like to see some of the trucks support their hardship claim with actual evidence based on their actual finances.

You appear to feel that the trucks have an absolute right to run commercial enterprises within a public right of way, and that the imposition of a fee is somehow unfairly punitive. You say you we subsidize everyone who parks on city streets (true) so you don't mind subsidizing businesses as well. You are certainly entitled to that opinion - after all as Mike Russo has said - subsidizing things is what government does. I too don't mind subsidizing the food trucks to some extent by allowing them to operate in the public right of way for less than the market price that could be established through a competitive bidding system. I suspect that if the City were to change its plans to a competitive bid the howling would be far louder, because it would take far more than the proposed fee to secure one of the coveted 25 permitted licenses.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one - though as I've said I don't consider myself qualified to really have an educated opinion as to whether the proposed fees are set at exactly the right amount and I agree with those who have proposed prorating the fee based on how many days per week the truck wishes to be permitted to operate in Hoboken.

You and I generally agree on most things but even disagreeing with you has been fun. Have a great thanksgiving.

You want to see a hardship claim verified by the food trucks? How about a hardship claim verified by the B&M places before we impose a tax increase of 900% on the food trucks? How about they prove that their real estate taxes as a percent of sales is far higher than how much the food trucks pay already. Absent that, I say no tax increase at all. Have them prove the food trucks aren't paying enough and then we can talk about increasing taxes.

100 foot from a B&M place will remove most food trucks from areas of Washington that have restaurants. No need to ban them everywhere on Washington. Just impose and enforce that 100 ft rule.

Ian, this was all laid out at the meeting last night. email me or call me and i can fill you in.

Ian,
I agree, everyone seems to be missing the first point to this discussion. There is no license for how these food trucks are currently operating their businesses. Homeowners, Business owners, employees and vistors have been following the new parking rules for months now. If they dont they are being ticketed. The food trucks have been allow to break the parking laws in hoboken for years with zero enforcement. What i would like to see before the next meeting is have all the food truck follow their rules and regs that there $500.00 license is actually for, and if they dont let them get ticketed or booted like everyone else. Then they will have a better understanding of what the rest of hoboken deals with on a regular basis as it relates to parking. The system is not perfect but its the one we have and everyone should follow and play by the same rules. No exceptions..

To the contrary, it will require enough changes and revisions to almost certainly take it back to first reading. I said so much to both Claire Moses and Ray Smith. See this article: http://www.hudsonreporter.com/view/full_story/16538372/article--Hoboken-food-truck-vendors-sound-off-on-proposed-new-law-?instance=up_to_the_minute_hoboken

Rory...again...you should be concerned about the employees and owners of Hoboken businesses that feed the meters all day. That amounts to hundreds of spots on Washington Street. These trucks occupy a handful of spots. In the end this is all just a thinly veiled attempt to protect b&m restaurants and the landlords that collect their exorbitant rents. If someone wants to buy a used prada purse that bad they will find a parking spot.

Frank - the food trucks can park there - they just can't operate a commercial business there. Just like you can't operate a commercial business out of a property zoned residential.

Of course, someone who doesn't get the distinction between tax rate and tax levy obviously misses alot of things. And not only did I not miss my econ 101 classes - I taught a few. But it doesn't take a background in economics to know that parking your car and running a business out of your car are not the same.

"Nearly every day of the week our residential streets are lined with out-of-town trucks owned by renovation and construction companies. They are there all day, often parked on the resident-only side of the street. They may move for street cleaning, but I don't see them getting hassled by the parking authority for violating the four-hour limit. Have you ever seen a boot on a construction vehicle?"

These construction people are serving the tax payers and have ascertained " no parking posters from this time to that time by the property holder". So they may park in the spot as long as the property owners does not report it. Now if the person is doing light construction and does not have the permits for the spots, they are at risk for being booted.

Rory - the food trucks are serving the taxpayers. Who do you think their customers are?

Fixing the house is a need, buying a taco is a choice

Most of the repair and remodel jobs done in town are not at all needed. You don't need a new kitchen or bathroom, you do need to eat. Try again.

The Taco Truck is a great example of a truck that will probably no longer be in Hoboken under the new fees. Let's look at the math. They currently are in town 1 night a week for 2-3 hours for dinner, sometimes a bit more often and sometimes they skip weeks here. Whenever they aren't here, they are in JC, the Meadowlands, various private vents and a few other locations like the High Line. If they have to pay a fee of $5K to be here 1 night a week, that works out to about $100 a week or $30-50 an hour for the right to sell tacos here. How many tacos do you think they need to sell to cover that? How likely do you think it will be that they just serve that dinner meal they currently serve uptown in JC instead? They are already there for lunch and dinner several times a week. One more night in JC w/ no $30-50/hour cost of a vendor permit is whole lot more appealing than paying that $5K vendor permit fee and selling tacos to a couple dozen customers over by the ferry after they get off from work.

Amen! Where is PATCH's or 411's office?

Mr. Sinatra,

Do you have any supporting documentation? Everything I can find shows that the municipal tax rate hike occurred before Ms. Zimmer had any control over it. Of the two most recent budgets the municipal rate went from 2.022 to 1.711. It seems like the Library Rate is now itemized (whereas prior to 2011 it was included in the municipal rate). Since our Library Rate is now 0.113, for comparitive purpose our municipal tax rate has gone down from 2.022 to 1.824 or 9.8%. The preceding years tax range change is almost zero (where did you see an increase in the rate between 2009 and 2010?).

I wish the decrease were more. I would like to see Ms. Zimmer fulfill the larger tax cut she campaigned on - but at the same time I realize that for the first time in a long time Hoboken has a real budget. Hoboken isn't selling city assets to supplement revenues so taxes can be artificially low. Hoboken isn't under-budgeting and passing costs to future years. Hoboken is close to having a contract with the Fire Department. Hoboken has a contract with the Police Department for the first time in a long time.

I voted for Ms. Zimmer - but I've told her I'm not loyal to her: I'm loyal to Hoboken. I will vote her until there is someone better. She's honest. She's hard working. Its only because she is not a particularly talented politician that people like you, Mr. Sinatra can get people to believe otherwise. She should hire Mr. Cammarano to teach her political skills!

Petro you are always full of nonsense and utter garbage about Hoboken and you are no Hoboken taxpayer.

Stick to the diatribes passkey about the wonderful work Petro did looting the BoE.
There's only one person pushing for cutting spending and taxes and it's Mayor Zimmer who has been consistent at doing so.

You pal Frank Raia and the Russo-Mason crew are consistent in fighting against ALL those efforts. The police reorg being one big example that saved millions.

You ain't fooling anyone. Tell us how Petro voted on that illegal Raia construction contract at HoLa.

Let's hear about that!

I agree that an auction would be best. However the complexities and cost involved might preclude it. Also the idea of sharing a permit should definitely be explored.

OTOH the fee seems reasonable from a market standpoint, its is $12 a day (plus the exisitng $8 in quarters) for a parking space that would be still more expensive on the open market. I am willing to subsidize shoppers but day in and day out businesses not so much.

I would like to see the distance from a brick and mortar restaurant reduced, I paced out 100 ft, a restaurant at either end of the block would mean a truck couldn't park on that block! I don't know where the could park in the SE corner of the city.