Donna,

I grew up hearing my neighbors (who sent their kids to Catholic school) say that they will always vote no on the school budget because their kids did not go to the schools. My people that do not directly benefit (families with children in the school) do not see it the way you do. Granted I was raised to think they were fools that could not see the big picture. It unfortunately how many people see things. Direct benefits are all they know about, the indirect is invisible.

You do see the bigger picture and recognize the role of schools in shaping future work forces.

"Direct benefits are all they know about, the indirect is invisible."

You touch on another point that "urchs" me about the pervasive attitude that if you don't have kids you shouldn't have a voice on what happens in our schools. . . . parents get so caught up in what's good for their own kid and not what's important for the whole or the long term, they won't allow steps in the short term to insure greater success even if it's a small inconvenient to them or their child.

For example, the parents know which kids are illegally enrolled in our schools. They pick up their kids all the time, see out of town parents picking up their kids. I heard parents are pretty "out' about it as they don't expect any one to turn them in. The rely on the fact that it's uncomfortable to tattle on someone and that small inconvenience to the people closest to the issue won't do anything about it.

Another example in our schools is with special needs kids. Americans have a difficult time with continiums ie things that are not black and white. We have kids with mild special needs such as dislectsia, speech delay, ADD, etc that need an alternate form or teaching and we obviously should accommodate that child. There are times were a child does not belong in the public school system. A friend of mine is an art teacher, there is a student who sits in class all day with an aide, has to where a diaper and grunts all day in one classroom. When that teacher needs a break, he goes to art.

The parents fought to have him "mainstreamed" in the regular school. He can't read, he can't communicate (Middle school aged kid). Per my friend the parents want him there because they can't afford day care. That aide makes what $45K - $50K a year plus benefits?? I understand the value of teaching other children how lucky they are and how to be inclusive, but that child is nothing but a distraction to learning and the resources could be much better spent elsewhere.

Lincoln believed in public education for society as a whole benefited from it - providing a more educated population at a cheaper cost than educating a child privately.

We have lost sight of the goal. We have put the 'one offs' ahead of the collective goal of having an educating population as a whole. I had a great public education. My parents bought in what was a rural area which by the time I went to kindergarten had a huge influx of money and an excellent school system. I think we have lost at least a generation and a half and people wonder why we are outsourcing jobs to India.

In Europe if you don't pass a test at 16, then you are done with school. That's it. We want to treat everyone equally even though many are not equal and at some point if you don't get the material move over and give someone else the seat.

I think the schools owe all the tax payers high quality graduates not just people who have kids.

Donna- "urchs" = irks
"dislectsia" = dyslexia

Lincoln didn't start the public schools program. In fact, pre-civil war, Georgia used money that came in from the railroad (which ran a profit) to pay for free public schools. Free public schools have been available in this country in one form or another, paid for by taxes or other means (but not through charging the students directly) since the 1600s.

The biggest problem with schools and learning, in general, is a lack of proactive parents. If a child is going to succeed, it is critical that not only his/her teacher have talent, but that his/her parent is actively involved. The best teacher in the world cannot make up for apathetic parents.

Like I said Americans have an issue with continuims. There is a moment to invest and then there are moments where it doesn't make sense.

If the overall goal is to create an educated workforce that can compete for jobs in a world where everyone can be "virtual", then we have to make decisions about what is the public's responsibility and what is a parents.

I was speech delayed and now I speak multiple languages.

I talk GED and was exposed to many that had surmountable disabilities and others who clearly didn't.

I think the schools should run at a pace where overall we produce a larger group of qualified graduates.

By the way, it's another rationale why Europe has college prep and basic highschools.Ever hear of A levels and O levels? O levels is where someone has passed the basic exam to graduate from public school. It's equivalent to a high school diploma. 'A' levels are considered junior college aka college prep. You and your parents determine which track you go on by vaguely middle school.So you know how our kids take a noise dive at middle school math?All of them would be put on a O level track and would not be able to get into a university in Europe. Pushing kids forward who don't have the basics is also making a divide at the college level. Where you go to school in the US says a lot about you.In Europe if you an American doesn't go to a top 40 school, your looked at as someone who just went to junior college. I think the demarcation is valid.

"There is a moment to invest and then there are momnets where it doesn't make sense."

"decisions to make about what is the public's responsibility and what is the parents"

Public education only if society as a whole benefit's??

What exactly are you saying? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Blind and deaf do affect how you interact in the classroom. If the teach writes on the board, but does not say what they are writing you miss out. If the teach turns their back and contiues to talk with a lipreading student in the class.

What would you do with that child. What would you do with that child when their parents pass away? What if the parent can not afford the for pay options?

Tell me what you would do if that child's parents were both working minimum wage full time jobs just to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table.

You are hitting a key point. What is the mission of public school? Is it a goal for each child? Is it about being responsible for the child during the day to parents who can't afford to take care of them? Is it about producing the maximum number of highly educated candidates that can work in US companies and create a stronger economy for Americans long term?

There in lies the dilemma. Where do you draw the line between individual rights and the good of the whole? The notion of every public works in this country started on the premise it was an investment in society as a whole. Americans I think struggle with this. Anyone and I mean anyone on the BOE would agree that we do well with extremes - super talented, disabilities. We are horrible at those in the middle and the middle is the largest group.

The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) is a law ensuring services to children with disabilities throughout the nation. IDEA governs how states and public agencies provide early intervention, special education and related services to more than 6.5 million eligible infants, toddlers, children and youth with disabilities.

Infants and toddlers with disabilities (birth-2) and their families receive early intervention services under IDEA Part C. Children and youth (ages 3-21) receive special education and related services under IDEA Part B.

http://idea.ed.gov/

Donna - "continuim"? I think you mean contingency, as continuum makes no sense in this context.

Your posts are disjointed and lack basic English skills, thus leading me to wonder how badly you mangle those "multiple languages" you claim to speak. For example:

if: "Is it about producing the maximum number of highly educated candidates that can work in US companies and create a stronger economy for Americans long term?"

Then: "Where do you draw the line between what a public school should offer and where the parents are responsible? " --somewhere around the point where society loses the benefit of the parent's productivity because said parent must stay home to deal with the special needs child.

In short, if your argument is that public schools present a benefit to society as a whole through potential output after being fully educated, then you must consider the loss to society as a whole when you remove said fully educated person from the workforce to tend to the special needs child. Include in this analysis the benefit of the job created for the person tending to that child all day at school versus the job at a daycare center, and subtract from the over all benefit the cost to employ that person on the taxpayer versus the private cost to the parents. Also remember to include the fact that the parents pay school taxes and want their money's worth as well.

Thanks.

I agree but it's not for our public schools to do that. It sounds like a medical issue.

I taught GED. They gave me a 10th grader who when tested had a "pre-GED' classification. She was aliterate at age 20. Through more testing, it was determined that her brain lacked the synopses where she would be able to learn.

Interestingly it's at age 6 or 7 when kids start to understand differences between themselves and others. She came from an indigent household. She had a 7 year old level in reading. Basically, she knew she didn't have what others had and that's when she stopped learning.

She was re-assigned as I was never meant to teach someone who was that far gone. I don't have that training. She ended up quitting. At age 20, professionals said she would never be able to re-orient her brain to learn. In her case, it was neglect. She was poor and the school ignored her. Her parents were illiterate and didn't advocate for her.

I am not talking about these situations nor the situation where people have a disability that just requires a different style of teaching. The kids with real mental disabilities cost $100s of thousand. The all get free transportion, aide, etc., and if it's an issue where they cannot have a vocation in the end, does it belong in public school?

It is designed to protect the rights of students with disabilities by ensuring that everyone receives a free appropriate public education (FAPE), regardless of ability. Furthermore, IDEA strives not only to grant equal access to students with disabilities, but also to provide additional special education services and procedural safeguards.
Special education services are individualized to meet the unique needs of students with disabilities and are provided in the least restrictive environment. Special education may include individual or small group instruction, curriculum or teaching modifications, assistive technology, transition services and other specialized services such as physical, occupational, and speech therapy. These services are provided in accordance with an Individualized Education Program (IEP), which is specifically tailored to the unique needs of each student

The categories of disabilities are; autism, deaf/blind, deafness, hearing impaired, mental retardation, multiple disabilities, orthopedic impairment, serious emotional disturbance, specific learning disabilities, speech or language impairment, traumatic brain injury, visual impairment including blindness, and other health impairment. To be eligible, a student must have a disability that adversely affects her or his educational performance and must need special education in order to receive an appropriate education.

http://www.help4adhd.org/education/rights/idea

I understand that women didn't vote but the point about mentioning where we started is to say that public school was introduced because it was expected to improve society as a whole. It wasn't about individual kids. It was how do we produce more productive people.

I saw in my corporate life and now in my own business. American businesses are not hiring American. We are losing the competition for the best jobs.

When we started low income housing it wasn't to help needy families. NO. It was because factory owners wanted a workforce that was near by. Instead of giving them more pay so they could rent an at market place, they said, "let's insure that they are always near by, roof over their head so they can come to work everyday". The same with affordable housing. It was suppose to be a stepping stone between low and market housing so that there were a mix of people in an area that could supply a company with a variety of different level candidates.

It's capitalism vs socialism. And by the way, I am Independent. I just think a tax dollar should serve the public as a whole. It should have a public purpose.

"The IDEA and its predecessor statute, the Education for All Handicapped Children Act, arose from federal case law holding the deprivation of free public education to disabled children constitutes a deprivation of due process. It has grown in scope and form over the years. IDEA has been reauthorized and amended a number of times, most recently in December 2004, which contained several significant amendments. Its terms are further defined by regulations of the United States Department of Education, which are found in Parts 300 and 301 of Title 34 of the Code of Federal Regulations."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individuals_with_Disabilities_Education_Act

What did I say $50 to $55K I don't think $10K is a material difference in the big picture. $45K + $20K for benefits + pension contributions is a lot for one child who is not going to get a job.

And please read the whole post.I think that we should accommodate many many disabilities. The example that I used that I don't understand why we have such a student in the public school is one that is disabled, mentally challenged and cannot learn. Did you see the example I used? A teacher who has been teaching a long time has a student that is 12 years old, in diapers, cannot talk, cannot read or write who sits in one classroom all day while the classes change and he just sits there.How is that helpful to the child?How is that good for the public school?Who is that serving?

Teaching techniques have come a long way& accommodate many where they haven't in the past - Journey talks about techniques for teaching the blind, deaf, dyslesic, CP, MS, MD, spinabifida. These have nothing to do with ability to learn.

I am questioning the impact to deliver better education to the masses when we go above and beyond.

Do you think a child with the disabilities I have described in paragraph 2 belongs in a public school? If not, who is responsible for his daily care?

Again, your extreme comment about "why don't you just focus on repealing the ADA" makes the point that we are not good with dealing with continiums.We fail the masses.I would like to see more focus and effort on the avg kid

I don't know where your friend teachs, but I don't think any aide gets $45-55,000 + bennies.

If the child could not be accomodated in a public school, wouldn't they have to be accomodated in a special school. My guess is that would be much more than that.

Do you object to outplacement as well? For 12yr olds?

The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) is a law ensuring services to children with disabilities throughout the nation. IDEA governs how states and public agencies provide early intervention, special education and related services to more than 6.5 million eligible infants, toddlers, children and youth with disabilities.

Infants and toddlers with disabilities (birth-2) and their families receive early intervention services under IDEA Part C. Children and youth (ages 3-21) receive special education and related services under IDEA Part B.

I compared the US system to Europe.I went to school there.At 16, in England, German & Italy & other countries, you have to pass a test to continue.If you don't pass that's it, your out.The system doesn't invest more in you.If an ordinary level graduate wants to go onto to university later on, he has to go to a junior college on his own dime.

I made the pt that Lincoln started the public school system as proposition & a promise to business owners of the day-"Let the government collect taxes and create a public school and we will produce useful employees that will get hurt less, and will be more productive for you." "Fund public education and we will provide a good workforce."

I think that we have lost that a little.There are many kids that may not go to college which is fine but they come out of our average schools (not the elite schools in some rich suburb) without basic skills. Our schools seem to focus on the outliers-the gifted kids & the special needs kids.

I cited an ex. where experienced teachers questioned whether or not a specific case should be in the public school.We help many w/ disabilities as we should but is there a pt it doesn't make sense?Did you see the example?Is that a case for public schools?Is taking care of a severely disabled kid part of public education or is what is needed for that kid long term disability?Are the parents responsible for that or our schools?How can those resources be invested otherwise to create the workforce for tomorrow?

Don't misunderstand me. There are many kids that have special needs and we should serve them but I asked the question is there a limit where society should empower the schools to say that is beyond the public's promise?

Did you see the example? We go to monumental efforts for kids with special needs and the gifted but I feel like we need to focus more on the masses in the middle. We need more of them to come up the learning curve so they can do something when they graduate.

The Federal Government of the United States of America has decided that the public should be "responsible for his daily care".

Donna,
You lack some credibility here. The test in Germany to determine your qualifications for Gymnasium (their college bound high school) is given before age 10 (they can first enter at 10, and then they can test again to enter at 13. After that it's much more difficult to test up). I know for a fact that the test has been given around the age of 10 for at least the last 20+ years when I first learned about it.

Lincoln did not start the public school system. He may have enhanced it, but he certainly didn't start it. And after the civil war, Georgia's railroads no longer turned a profit (after the carpet baggers pretty well destroyed the state) & at least one generation of children grew up mostly illiterate. In addition, even if children did attend school, there was no requirement at that time to attend. Some quit after 3rd grade to farm or apprentice.

Regarding your question about this child you keep harping on, in addition to my previous thoughts, I believe that given the amount of functional illiterates graduating nationwide, it seems silly to call high school little more than daycare for those individuals as well. Therefore, I have no problem with my tax dollars being used to maybe help a disabled child who truly cannot perform better versus being wasted on teens who just don't care.

http://www.scn.org/~bk269/94-142.html

The federal government has laws protecting those children who cannot read,write nor do math. Charter schools by and large are not equipped to handle severly handicapped students, nor are many public schools. Thus in more sever cases, private schools must be used and are paid for via public funds from the local board of education. There is a continum for special education students. Students with needs than cannot be met in an inclusive program may be placed in a more restictive classroom environment (self contained classroom). The continum vaires per child. You should probably read up on the facts of special education as all of this has been researched, documented, legal battles fought and won, laws created, ammendments to laws made etc...

As or your 45k per aide- please provide documentation of said aide's salary. Most aides in special education get paid between $7-$10 per hour and a large protion of those aides do not get health insurance, as they work under 40 hours and are not employed during the summer.

What do you think of the example that I cited above? Is that a candidate for public schools or is that a long term disability situation? Do you feel what the school is providing is helpful to the child and how?

The Federal Law says that is an example of "a candidate for public schools". The public schools are responsible to educate ALL children. This law begain in 1975.

There is no such placement/service to children who are classified called "longe term disability situation". There is only,support services, inclusion, self contained, special school etc... and a student/teacher ratio.

Again, look at this distance we go for special needs. When I started this post, it started as a discussion on how we fail the masses. There are so many graduates that came out of public schools that lack basic skills - reading, writing and arithmetic. We are failing this kids and the rest of the public when they cannot compete for jobs. This is the point I was making.

There are self contained places for some severely handicapped kids to go but the parents don't always accept that. The example I gave I believe is one of them. It has been reported to me, he is sitting in a regular classroom in the back with an aide all day except when the teacher of that class takes a break, then they bring him to art class where he sits in the back of that room. Is that education? What is he getting out of that and at what cost?

Someone mentioned that aides make $7-10 /hour or they make$45K vs $55K, some with no benefits. The aide taking care of the kid mentioned above is not in Hoboken, makes $50K gets benefits + pension. The kid is also transported. If he was in a self contained program it would be cheaper. I still question what he is ever going to learn.

He needs to be in a place where they have speech pathologist that can help figure out how to swallow (apparently he throws up a lot) and have the right kind of interaction equipment. It's cognitive therapy alla what happens when someone is in a severe care accident. Is that education or therapy?

Frankly I didn't intend to take in on this tangent. It started out as a post about how we fail the non special kids. I was commenting about how there is a good generation and a half who have come out of school without basic skills and we need to focus more on them.

The example is not from Hoboken. In the district mentioned above, per one of the teachers, there are 5 such kids. It's a large district. Which ever salary numbers you use, that would be about $350K. I made the comment that our laws have focused on special kids whether gifted or with disabilites and we have forgotten about the middle. We are not demanding quality for the middle.

My admins both in my corporate days and now, have been high school graduates and although I was able to find good employees, I have always been surprised at the skill levels of many of the candidates. They graduated from seemingly 'ok' places and lacked many basic skills - basic division and multiplication, poor grammar and reading levels. There are many kids who are not going to go to college and for those we should be producing candidates that can still get an entry level job with a high school diploma.

One admin in the office, when she talked about her Hoboken education she was visible angry. She grew up in the projects, ie she was not from a financially comfortable family. She said she was the only one of her friends who went onto college.

She told me a few shocking stories about how her teachers would literally not attempt to teach. We were joking about an episode of the Simpsons where the daughter's teacher announced that she reached tenure and she was going to have one of the kids teach the class. In the cartoon, the teacher sits down, puts her feet on the desk and starts reading People magazine. She immediately went into a stories where some of her high school teachers did similar things. She is 25 or 26 now so perhaps under the new BOE, some of this has been eliminated. She was emphatic and upset with what she got from Hoboken.

She was attending community college and she talked about how she had to pay to learn what she should have been taught in school again she was upset about how Hoboken was a waste of time for her. It was an interesting insight. As you know we have many graduates from Hoboken who have done very well. There were two kids in my neighborhood again, from a poorer family, one was in the gifted program and she graduated with honors from Rutgers in Pharmacy. Her sister just got her regular high school diploma and she is lost.

Donna, you are spamming this site.
Enough with your fake stories.

My parents did not monitor my homework or progress. I had good report cards and perhaps because of my reports they didn't feel I needed their supervision. I was not a special kid and I feel the school was able to get me to do what I needed to do in order to learn.

Generally, I think that schools use to do better for the average kid and now we don't. My school had 98% going on to college. Yes it was a suburban school but I can't believe 98% of the kids parents were intimately involved. Mine were not.

Interesting comment though. What do we do about that? The point I was trying to make is in the end those that are not college bound lack basic skills and are not that employable with today's entry level jobs. We don't factories here so what do they do? Again, as an employer, I am looking for good candidates. I know many employers, mostly in corporate, who have outsourced some of their ops because they can't hire here, not because of pay per se, but because of skill level.

Every considered the focus on 'special' children is parent drive? That the parents of gifted or disabled children get involved and fight for their children. You have already given ample examples of how the parents of the average child is not paying attention. Even your parents were not paying attention.

I learned a long time ago that the squeaky wheel gets fixed (but be careful sometimes it gets shafted). My parents fought for me, I fought for myself, I will fight for my daughter.

That child you are harping about has parents that are fighting for him. The teachers might think it is disservice to his classmates. Where are the parents of his classmates? What are they doing about the quality of their children's education?