Zimmer's politics of hate is dealt another blow. Kids First loses on the machines! BHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

HOBOKEN
Carmelo G. Garcia*
Clifford Godfrey
Jean Marie Mitchell*
Steven Feinstein
Frances Rhodes-Kearns*
Patricia Waiters
Peter Biancamano

School Tax Levy: $36,479,095

Yes

No

Jersey Journal just released these numbers.

Thanks for the good advice. But I think they are full. They ate Kids First for lunch today. Try not to get any crow on your shirt!

Well, looks like mamma russo will be getting her thug friends back on the dole

So 2nd ward Al, you see this as a victory for your boss Beth Mason? Just wondering.

Hey Redrider, you keep talking about people on the dole. How about talking about all the relatives Ms. Sobolov has on the public payroll? Does that not count? just because she's one of yours doesn't change the fact that nepotism is alive and well in the Zimmer/Kids First camp.

HobokenHorse I see it as a big loss for your boss Stan Zimmer!

Wow, no reaction to the Sobolov statement? Must be true.

Too bad about David's great picture with Carmelo, Peter and then Frank Raia being cut out of it.
He was in it just earlier.
Why?

why is farina always hanging out with people on the ballot. Does the city clerk always go to victory parties?

Does Peter Biancamano have any qualifications beyond his working elections with Frank "Pupie" Raia ?

Kids First still has a 5-4 majority on the Board.

Kudos to Jean Marie Mitchell for all her hard work and staying involved.

Kudos as well to Godfrey and Feinstein for taking on the challenge too.

Whoa, you're going to argue qualifications now? What qualifications do KF bring? And don't yammer on about being a parent with a child in the system. That doesn't qualify anyone to do anything.

Following your line of thinking, Ms. Sobolov will have to toe the line in order to keep her relatives on the dole. Hypocrites can't throw stones.

Wanna list Ms. Markal's qualification, Hobbs?

wow huge disappointment!
Kind of like hoping to get Toni Morrison and winding up with Snooki. Kudos to the Kids First slate for running a clean campaign and for putting yourselves into the fray.
Congratulations to the winners.
Its a battle but they didn't win the war.

So Hobbs, can't list Ms. Markal's qualifications?

Clean and politics will never go together. And that's simply accepting what has been around forever. Humans are dishonest and no one has cornered the market on honesty. There are questions surrounding Mr. Mello's attendance to Giants' games with a Mr. Raia. What about Dawn and the lottery tickets or the video of her with Raia in the elevator. Sobolov has family in city hall and family employed at the BOE...yet no one wants to scream about that. So deal with the reality and work the VBM strategy into a winning one. Like, go to happy hours at bars and get the votes there.....but stop saying that everytime Zimmer loses there is corruption at the root. I don't see the army of AG people invading Hoboken...wouldn't they be here if there were legitimate concerns? And what about all these qualifications? Oh, there aren't any, I think that's what the qualifications are.

So Red, are you saying that they'll be looking into the Zimmer Councilperson and the Sewerage Authority vote right after a Giants game? Or will they be looking into the Zimmer Councilperson who has out of town contracts and who just happened to follow up with hefty campaign contributions? Or will they be looking into the KF nepotism issue? You see, there may not be anything illegal there, but for someonne who claims to have such high standards, You don't seem too concerned about the greenshirts who seem very cumfy at the low end of the standards spectrum.

Red, do you think Judy Burrell simply "got a call" from the Gov to invite her to the Housing Authority? Really??? Do you think things like that just happen? No! JB is a long time pal of Markel and who else? I don't have low standards, but the back scratching is as old as cave people, so people learn to work the margins or grey areas. That's how things are and frankly, I don't find the Zimmertinis or anyone particularly clean. Just a sliding scale of connectedness; some people more connected, some people less connected. My blinders are off.

When the elecs come out we'll see miss Mason pulled a wheelie to help this group. Her checkbook plus the vote by courier service Mama 5 bucks and Raia provide are certainly powerful.

Winners:
Garcia, bubbles, biancamano
Guys who beat women in church towers
Raia - his hand picked crew wins and he gets mason to pay for it!! He must be laughing today
People applying for 150k copy manager jobs and ac techs at hoboken schools
Vote by mail scams

Losers:
Kid's first
Women who dont like getting beaten up
Hoboken taxpayers
Future generations of hoboken children. Look out loowest rated schools, here we come!!

Carmelo Garcia and the other so called "independents" got out their vote. There was once again a lot of street money in play. I wonder if and when that will be reported and if so properly.

The old guard has an upper limit of their base (2200-2300) but they get it out year after year. The Kids first team simply didn't and thats why they lost. The KF base is much larger but much harder to get out and vote. If the turnout was 5,000 votes for the BOE election the results would have been different. That simple but getting the yuppies to vote isn't that simple. They will need the motivation next year of losing the majority to finally sink in and get out and vote. If they actually do it won't even be close and the old guard knows this. Their only hope is to divide reform. Enter Maureen Sullivan.

BTW- Of the three Kid's First Candidates I saw nothing but positive vibes from each of them. No hate from that bunch. Political Operative 2nd Ward Al is the hater. I don't hate the Garcia, just the poor attendance , poor fiscal management and poor judgement that comes from that man.

We will see how the "slippery slate" does now that they have inched closer to the majority. They only picked up one seat. I'll bet Frank Puppie in his pants Dia-Raia runs again next year emboldened by his success as a king maker but still lacking a college level education or a real pedogogical knack for children's needs. He made his money the old fashioned way. Russ-off!

How can you possibly assume the KF base is larger when they lost almost 2:1? ?? You can't talk about a base when they are not voting. Anybody will wear a green shirt or any color shirt for cash...that doesn't mean the greenshirt votes green. Same as all those VBM. Yes the majority went to the Independent slate, but a fraction went to KF. While you can hire someone to work for your campaign, in the end, the ballot is confidential and what a person puts on that ballot is confidential. And yes, I do believe that people will accept money to work for a campaign and not necessarily vote for that candidate. I believe there is enough need for cash that some people do this. What better way than to stick it to a politician?

Also, Red, don't assume that people who do not align with the mayor are in line with Mason. That's simply too sweeping a generalization to make and do you really think Mason wields that kind of power? Right now there isn't anyone sitting on the council who would make a great mayor; how's that for an opinion?

Leafy- Because that is how Kids First won the majority in 2009 with over 5000 votes. Their base came out that year since there was more at stake.

As for the Mayor's race in 2013 there is Dawn Zimmer and Beth Mason (if she wins her council race). There is also the possiblity of Mike Novak and Ruben Ramos as well for Mayor. Pupie could also give it a shot. I don't know about Red but I don't think all the anti-Zimmer vote will go to Mason. No way. There are two many big swinging _____ outsized personalities with big egos to feed at the trough of developer greed for it all to go to Beth Mason. Time will tell who becomes the Mayor's main opposition.

Agreed on that Red.

here we go again...
I don't wear a green shirt, so I must be a Mason operative...WRONG!!! I was one of you until I got tired of attending meetings and hearing the same old crap. Power, power, power...never a discussion about kids. Now, are you trying to tell me that Ms. Sobolov doesn't have at least three family members on the dole? It's public information. No charges or false claims...it's FACT and you know it.

Is it a lie that Ms. Sobolov has at least three relatives on the public dole, Hobbs? That's fact, not part of any campaign. I'm sick and tired of you accusing everyone of being an operative whenever they say something YOU don't like. So, back to my point. You need to stop accusing those who don't wear green shirts of lying when clearly, Ms. Sobolov is the poster girl for selling out her values in order to protect her teet-feeding relatives.

How many Russo relatives are on the taxpayer payroll ?

Come May 10th two can be removed.

How many are there? More than the three that Ms. Sobolov has on the payroll?

To attack Irene who has given so much to the community is so pathic
what have you given to the community
what wrong have you put yourself out there to correct
You have real envy issues

No envy issues here. All ?I want is to raise my kids in a decent environment and provide them with a decent education. "I bring up Ms. Sobolov because she always put herself out there as being fair and concerned. But her blind support of the KF agenda has been nothing but disappointing. When I met her through the HFA, I was sire that she would be a good addition to the board of ed. But watching her in action and seeing how blind she is to the vicious agenda promoted by KF, I can't help but think that she has to do as she's told in order to keep her relatives employed. So, you see, I'm not a political operative, but a very disheartened mom who simply expected more. Shame on you for browbeating me for expressing my opinions.
I don't know the Russo's, and I know that you people don't like them, but it doesn't change the fact that Ms. Sobolov has relatives on the payroll and as such, her behavior will always be suspect.

If you want to understand Irenes actions - why don't you meet with Irene to discuss this - i am sure she would meet with you. However to associate her families continues employment with her support of KF - is adding a false issue making your argument weaker. If you do have proof of a Quid Pro Quo this then give it - but i know that you are wrong in this matter and i suspect you do also

Honestly cat, I believe I'm right on this one. Irene would never stand by and watch the KF team do the things they've done without fear of hurting her relatives. She knows that what they are doing is wrong, and she has had conversations of that nature with my husband. It's just a shame that she allows herself to be in this position.

I guess we know two different people with the same name

Funny how Beth Mason and her people used to question the actions of the Russo's before and now they make excuses like the rest of the family.

All part of that downward moral spiral Mason bought into. :-)

Of course I know OF the Russo's but I wouldn't include them in my circle of friends. You fools will try anything to discredit someone simply for disagreeing with you. No wonder you lost on Wednesday.

We're not talking about the Russo's as 'friends of yours' but the people and kind of of people who've run this town (corruptly) the whole 25 years I've been a 'new comer' here. I don't think Zimmer and the people she supports are perfect, and for school board I voted for Maureen Sullivan's people last time. But between KF and the 'independents', it's people who will align with the corrupt old guard and people who won't. I vote for people who won't, KF in this case, or same with Zimmer's candidates v the 'independents' in the council elections, including the Russo's directly in that case.

I'm no Hoboken politico trying to charm you lady, you're either lying or an idiot or you support the corruption because you think it will benefit you (as many in Hoboken do, or we wouldn't be the national joke we are), if you try to pretend it's not about the corrupt old guard personified by the Russo's. It was the same crap with Cammarano 'oh you Zimmer people try to discredit anyone who doesn't "agree" with you blah blah blah', then there he was on the FBI wiretap selling us out. Carmelo Garcia for one is hip deep in old Hoboken corruption. Why would anyone who was just 'a mom in Hoboken' vote for that. Who do you think you're kidding?

Wow...the green shirts are coming after me big time. I guess being on the board and claiming to be a reformer while your family is on the dole is ok with you. Seems to me , and this was my point all along, that it's ok for your people to be from the old school and feeding from the trough as long as they pledge allegiance to the Zimmer Machine.

the problem with Sobolov isn't her relatives on the payroll. They were there long before she was on the BOE. The problem is that she adds absolutely nothing to the board. She seems to just sit there at meetings and say nothing. She did more for the schools before she was on the board. It's hard to argue she's done anything for the schools since she got on the board. She's one of the only board members with kids in the school system, so she should know more about how to reverse the schools' decline, but we never see her speak out for what's right, for reform of any type. It's obvious she lets Markle bully her into keeping quiet. Where was she with Paula? Markle rules by fear and it's worked with Sobolov. She does not want Markle coming after her. And this goes to the whole problem with Kids First. The newcomer "base" thinks it's a group of enlightened reformers and newcomers, just like them. But it's completely dominated by a chairman who's as uneducated, backwards, uninformed, and old Hoboken etc. as the posters here accuse the old Hoboken people as being. KF is a bunch of timid suburbanite newcomers (plus Irene, who probably agrees with Markle more than any newcomer would be comfortable with) who let themselves be pushed around by the biggest bully in Hoboken. Until KF purges itself of Markle, it is not going to regain its reputation as reformers and the trust of the newcomers that it's thrown away these last two years.

The problem with the Russo's is that the have beeen repeatedly caught by all levels of law enforcement at beig crooked .

Hoboken has the choice of keeping a crime family in power or throwing the bums out.

This is like a word association game. Everytime someone mentions Sobolov, Hobbs mentions Russo.
Maybe it's the fact that Ms. Sobolov supported the Russo's for years, probably for the same reasons she supports Zimmer/KF....to keep her relatives on the dole.
So, ok...I say Sobolov...you say...Russo

go gget em al

seems someone doesn't like B&R women who make changes.

sounds ax grindy to me.

Pied Piper

Are you the party that played your flute to take all the rats out of the City\\I remember most if not all the elections in Hoboken

Hoev far back do you go??

Who cares if the score is 1 - 0. the winner got the votes

Absorb it. It makes for interesting meetings

And when a council person cannot carry their own ward it is time to be concerned

I.ve seen the council go fro 9 - 0 ---to 0- 9.

Stay well. Don't swallow your flute

Ochipinti has nothing to do with the schools. This discussion was centered around the BOE elections, not the council elections. You people will do anything to get away from the fact that KF hasn't improved a damn thing. Pied Piper, you must be hitting the sauce too much because you're seeing pink elephants. There is no AP program and most of the things you listed are fantasy. Everyone in town knows that the HS Principal is a whackadoo and you think that's an improvement?
Get back to article...KF has lost it's luster because the people in this town are sick and tired of their empty promises.

Out of control no mother of two would write like you do - congratulations you fooled me

Sorry folks

The principals did not get released they retired as did many many more city employes for fear of losing their lucrative pensions. And who would blame them>>>>>

PS How many were REPLACED ???? with cohorts

Forgive my keyboard SHOUTING, but I just have to reply to Pied Piper's drivel...
Lowest allowable budget - Lowest…60 million? Are you kidding me? However, the TAX LEVY has remained relatively unchanged FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS
laptops for kids – yes, for the grades of board members’ children only
replacing 10 year old text books – the administration is SUPPOSED to replace older textbooks cyclically
AP programs – and IB phased out. No progress – just an exchange. And a few kids get lost in the shuffle, but what does KF care?? They don’t.
New College Classes for HS students being brought in – NEXT YEAR – under Dr. Toback
remedial classes reimplemented – Actually, a good thing. OK.
before and afterschool tutoring for HS students – Thank you, teachers.
SAT prep classes for HS students – combined HSPA/ SAT prep. Totally inadequate.
Replacing 3 out of 4 principals – again, not progress - an exchange. Putting YOUR people in.
NOT firing teachers to make way for no show admin jobs – BULLYING and HARRASING people on your HIT LIST. And buying other’s silence by hiring/ keeping their relatives.
TO BE CONTINUED.......

Reply to Pied Piper's Drivel PART II
Lowering administration positions to a total of 13- Includes superintendent pricnipals etc.. – putting IRVINGTON rejects in charge of our children and our staff for a year and a half. Was that the BEST you could do?? Or did it reflect the low esteem with which you regard US and our children?
enforcing rules for EVERYONE, equally – Except for anyone who aligns themselves with KF, who will be treated as if they walk on water. Because you think you are superior. Old Hoboken need not apply.

While there is lots and lots more, I think the voters said it all.

IB/AP Issue- suggesting that IB was a failure because it only graduated a few "full diploma" students is similar to saying that AP will not be a success unless a child receives a "4" or "5" on ALL subject area tests. Getting a full diploma in IB is similar to a student getting college level credit (generally a 4 or 5 on the AP 5 point scale- sometimes a 3) in all of the following classes: AP English, AP Foreign Language, AP History, AP Biology/Physics or Chemistry, and AP Mathematics. How many "full AP diplomas" do you think we'll have in HHS using the same criteria? Citing the number of full IB diplomas awarded as THE criteria for choosing AP over IB is more public relations and politics than it is thoughtful educational policy and decision making and glosses over the TRUE differences between IB and AP-- and why IB IS the better choice at HHS.

If anyone thinks that HHS is going to start producing tidal wave of 4's and 5's on the AP exams, I predict disappointment. The road to success on the AP is arduous. The IB numbers were low; the AP is comparable in difficulty so I don't see a wave of success coming at us. The AP allows students to do advanced work in a single discipline...but getting kids up to speed is no easy task. Read Escalante, the book upon which Stand and Deliver is based. Aside from the Escalante piece of the story, the implementation and growth of the AP program at Garfield HS is interesting in the overall complexity of running a successful program in a large urban low income transient, dual language district.

The reference to Garfield was to enable the reader to infer that Hoboken does not have to overcome as many obstacles because Hoboken has a largely English speaking population and a smaller population. However, the public school population in Hoboken is poor (as was Garfield at the time of publication) and achievment is not high based on the average SAT scores. I find the tenor of the IB/AP debate is IB was a waste of money and time since so few students graduated with an IB diploma and so the AP is the better way to go. I think the AP program is an easier program to sell since more people are familiar with it, but to connect the IB's lack of success to ....I'm not sure what, and the presumed success of AP is ignoring the fact that there is a small population of kids able to succeed in an advanced track, be that track AP or IB. AP is not a panacea for the district. I prefer the AP program since it allows students to access advanced coursework in distinct discpiplines. It is noteworthy that the strongest academic programs in the country don't even title their courses with AP....students are simply prepared enough to sit for the exam. You don't need to enroll in an AP course to take the test.

Because they are poor they can't learn or achieve in high school?

First, you CAN take individual IB classes AND you can take individual IB course exams. The "Full Diploma" is simply a "platinum" level--- KF McAllister (head of the Curriculum Committee for the BOE) is aware of this but it wasn't part of the "narrative"....

I understand that IB in HHS certainly had some successes (professionally trained teachers, a good curriculum, a "feeder" system via the Middle Years program) as well as challenges (class size, "full diplomas", scheduling). As leafy indicates, it will be an equal- if not more formidable challenge implementing AP in HHS. And if the criteria remains the same, a "full AP diploma" - then I do not predict much success at all. To be clear, AP has its critics and they are growing--- a recent volume published by Harvard University Press (2010) articulates many of these concerns more than space allows. So, AP is not without its own challenges and criticisms. Most college admissions officers know the IB program well and say they recruit IB students as eagerly as they do AP students. But those officers don't decide course credit policy. College academic departments do (a fact not many people seem to appreciate).

Implementing AP will be no easier than IB and may prove to be more challenging (i.e. professional development, new curriculum, increased and required lab activities for the sciences). Let's see how many "Full AP Diplomas" are awarded...that will be the criteria we'll use to judge AP's ultimate success.

You definitely made and effort to give what info you've gained informally to everyone here and that's appreciated. However you didn't answer my question.
.
Can you tell me how many college credits is a single class, say an English class, worth?

is an individual IB class equal to the same college credit as an AP class? How many kids received college credit for individual IB classes or tests?

What about "the hoboken public school population is poor" ? You think IB is better becuse the kids are poor?

The number of credits is completely dependent upon the accrediting university. For example, the Rutgers School of Engineering information for acceptance of AP and IB is given below. Each college determines the amount of credit that will be granted.
ADVANCED PLACEMENT
Degree credit is awarded for advanced placement examination scores of 4 and 5 on the College Board Advanced Placement Examinations. Credit is not given for grades of 3, 2, or 1.
Some students may find that these high school level courses did not provide the same foundational knowledge that is available through an introductory-level university course. They may, after consultation with an advisor, decide to waive the credits from the AP course to enable them to register for the introductory course in a particular academic discipline. This waiver must be requested in writing. If the student accepts the credits and subsequently enrolls in the course, the Advanced Placement credit will be deleted. Advanced Placement exam scores will not be accepted for credit if the exam is completed after the student's graduation from high school.
INTERNATIONAL BACCALAUREATE (IB) EXAMINATIONS
The School of Engineering recognizes that rigor of the International Baccalaureate program and grants college credit for students who demonstrate strong performance (scores of 7, 6 and 5) on Higher Level exams. Credit is not given for grades of 4 or lower or for Subsidiary/ Standard Level exams.

Re: Hoboken is a poor district. To clarify: Roughly 75% of Hoboken's traditional public school population lives at or below the poverty line. I was told this by people working at the BOE. So, when I say "poor district" I mean that many of the students enrolled in the public schools are from poor families. I do not think poor kids can't learn (that's ridiculous so don't even bother with some racist- classist crap), but let's be real in acknowledging that achievement for poor kids living in the United States is generally lower than middle class and upper class kids and the AP is no exception.

A successful AP program will take years to bear fruit as bolstering both middle school and high school curriculums is necessary in order for students to be successful on the AP. Same as with the IB program. The Middle Years program was not in place too long before IB was scrapped. Mr. Gagliardi introduced the IB to Hoboken and after much time an money, Hoboken switched. I hope the transition to AP goes well. I understand the criticisms of the AP program, but at least having one in place insures, at least on paper, the presence of rigorous curriculum and instruction. Test results will prove whether or not the program is implemented properly.

IB was implimented in the high school over 1o years ago and only implimented into the middle years a year or two ago? Why the wait to provide the feeder programs?

You need to direct questions like that to Gagliardi...the IB program was initiated by him.

didnt impliment middle school IB right? why such a lag before that went in?

you just said the middle years was recently implimented, maybe 2 years ago. I wonder why it wasn't implimented 10 years ago along with the hs IB or in the 8 years after that? Wouldn't those students have benefited from a middle years program feeding into the high school?

Hoboken High School was recognized as the second most improved high school in the state of new jersey in 2008 and won honorable mention by us news and world report in 2009 and 2010. Both awards were unsolicited (all BC but still on the HHS website). To say IB was not *part* of that success is ridiculous. Programs like IB/AP take attention and monitoring. I hear that for the past 2 years, the curricula and instructional components of the district lost focus, direction, leadership, and expertise. IMHO, adopting AP gives the Board at least a couple of years of "we're working on it" excuses. They are already a school year behind the time they said it would be ready. See KF Mitchell's Sept '10 letter in Hoboken Reporter promising AP courses in HHS this school year.

True IB classes are only for the Jrs and Seniors. The so-called "IB" classes that Freshman and Sophomores take (took) are not technically IB courses, but rather "Pre-IB" - to prepare students for the academic expectations of IB work.
The move into the middle school grades was optional and done so that there was better alignment with the high school. Initial Middle Years teacher training began around 2006, if I recall.
Middle Years IB was designed to prepare ALL students - it was not only for those who would pursue honors level academic courses in high school.
IB provides a standard curriculum that is used globally - useful for families of diplomats and international business people. AP is more commonly used within the U.S., so more people are familiar with it and more colleges have set policies for recognizing the examination scores for credit. However, it is up to the college to evaluate and to make the determination whether or not to offer any credit.

While the kids were in the library today, I did some research on the IB program in Hoboken HS and apparently there was a Superintendent named Duroy who started the IB Program almost 18 years ago.

WOW! IB has been in the high school almost 20 years? How many IB certificates were earned in that time and did those kids earn college credit for that?

20 years?

I stand corrected. Regarding how many college credits are awarded per AP class, there are some colleges that do not allow AP credits to count toward a diploma, but instead can be used to advance a student past introductory courses or perhaps count toward fulfilling concentration requirements. However, the AP is not counted toward the overall graduation requirement so students can not complete degree programs at those schools early. Harvard has an advanced standing category, but even those students stay for 7 semesters. Essentially Harvard will get four years of tuition in exchange for the diploma.

Johnsmith - the question is: how many students will score a 4 or 5 on the AP?

I'm not sure how many certificates were awarded and I don't think it's really relevant. Again, it sets up the false argument that "success" is predicated on successfully scoring very high on EVERY single course during the Diploma Years (grades 11 and 12). I would ask you, how many "Full AP Certificates" do you expect HHS students to receive next year when AP is implemented (a student obtaining scores of "4" or "5" on AP Science, AP Mathematics, AP History, AP English AND AP Foreign Language)? That's the criteria you are holding IB up to....

@lasteema: I said "some", not "all" . I didn't major in English, but I understand shades of meaning.

@johnsmith: again, I stand corrected. Tburns has the timeline. Tburns also was correct in that every college and university sets their own AP policy. My guess is that Harvard, given the strength of their student body, wants their students to stay for four years in order to get the full Harvard experience and in turn to contribute to the school's life. Other schools possibly see their role as serving populations that desire a college degree but, for a variety of reasons, need to fast-track their time spent in school. Again, I cite the Escalante book. The bulk of those students wanted to reduce potential college expenses so getting AP credit for coursework completed in high school made sense from an economic perspective.

@ms. zucker, like I said, some schools, like those on par with Harvard, have policies like Harvard's; every school has the freedom to be different. That's what makes this country great. There is something for everyone.

wouldn't reducing potential college expenses by getting AP credit for coursework completes in high school be a good thing, especailly if you say so many students live at or below poverty line?

you can take individual IB classes or the full diploma program. There are many benefits to the full diploma program that (IMHO) should not be based only on 1) receiving an IB Diploma or 2) getting any college credit. Such benefits as breadth of experience in foreign languages, social studies, the physical sciences and mathematics. There's also an emphasis on utilizing that knowledge and applying it in the forms of an extended essay (a.k.a. a thesis), service to the community, and theories of knowledge (metacognition/self regulation). Tools of the Mind (the Pre-K program) was adopted to be consistent with very similar features. It was all part of the PreK-12 arc of instruction and curriculum that was developed a few years ago. It was part of a plan.... ;-)

JS- the short answer is "yes"-- ANYONE can take an AP test for college credit (you don't need to be enrolled in an AP course). Moreover, the IB test (similar but not identical to the AP Test) can also be used for college credit (college's discretion). Again, generally 3 college credits per course if you score well on the standardized test. Put it this way, a few years ago the AP and IB organizations put out a joint publication basically saying, "we're not in competition with each other, we like each other and each program has benefits and challenges and here they are"--- it's really informative and for my money, objective and honest. I would suggest tracking it down and seeing for yourself.

If I'm not mistaken, the point being missed here is not whether one program is better than the other but rather, the fact that KF killed the IB program and still hasn't produced an AP program...
Lot's of talk, but no results. Pied Piper can be the chearleader for KF if she wants, but it doesn't changed the fact that the NO team, aka Kids First, is an empty suit that's just been taken to the cleaners.

One final point, in terms of AP college credit-- this is often granted by Department/College and not always by University. So, there can be different criteria within the same institution. For instance, one department may accept an AP score of "3" for credit...another only a "5" while a different department in a different college accepts "4 and above". Some will accept for "general credit" (electives) while others don't place any restrictions. The college guidance counsellors should have an idea--- it is true that significant $$$ can be saved by a student entering college with course credit. But-- that is true of BOTH AP and IB as more and more colleges/universities are accepting IB.

I found this quote--- kind of summarizes things:
“A.P. is great for content-based traditional learning,” he said. “It’s great for kids who like to memorize. But for more creative kids, who want to make those connections, there’s nothing like the I.B.”

I thought TBurns said IB was only for jrs. and sr? Are the juniors and seniors finishing their IB? If the AP starts next year, isn't that logical?

Pied Piper, you would love it if that were true. You just can't believe that someone, not related to anyone, not employed by the city or the boe, could actually disagree with you. Wake up Dorothy,you're not in Kansas anymore and the people here in Oz are getting tired of the Wicked Witches who keep dropping houses on our kids.

Angry? Bitter? Heck yeah. Out of Control and every anti-KF blogger has every right to be. Pied, JS and your ilk have squandered something precious and fleeting - our children's opportunity for an excellent education. KF promised "Reform" and brought in Peter Carter, Walter Rusak and Albert Joy. They cleared the decks of anyone who wouldn't kow-tow to Minutillo and co.
KF spent A YEAR AND A HALF looking for a replacement for Jack Raslowsky, after making it impossible for him to work. Minutillo was in Jack's office nearly every day - looking over his shoulder, micro-managing. So, he left. End of story.
All this discussion of IB vs AP is interesting, but Pied and her followers need to go ask the sitting KF Board members. THEY should have the data upon which the switch was conceived and implemented. Call Minutillo - ask her to show you the years during which IB classes were offered, how many students elected to sit which IB examines and what the resulting scores were. It is what she was elected to do. My guess is that last year was an especially low scoring year.

Kids First promised that AP would be in the schools THIS year (2010-11)- letter by KF Mitchell in Hoboken Reporter Sept '10. Makes for a good "back to school" PR letter but ends up being just PR at the end of the day.
Kids First kicked the can down the block on AP just like they kicked the can on Adult Ed, just like they kicked it on Saturday U and just as they took their attention away from student testing. The reality is the district is in curricula and instructional FREE FALL. Proof? 90% of Hoboken public school kids are currently in a school that failed to meet NCLB Adequate Yearly Progress as of April, 2011. Compare that to 15% when KF took control of the Board and hired Carter in 2009. You know, the "disaster" years of Raslowsky and crew ;-)
The quote that explains it all: "Let me end as I began with equally exciting news about Hoboken’s instructional program as manifest in the area of curriculum, an area, quite frankly which has lain dormant for a while." -Peter Caret 10/1/2010 (Superintendent's Letter to Parents and Guardians - 10-1-10). I don't blame Carter, he was the hired gun. I blame KF for lettering instruction, curriculum, and test scores plummet and for the damage it is doing to the district. The damage is not going to be fixed with laptops, FOSS kits, and AP--- that's for sure.

The minute Mitchell stated that AP would be in the high school this year I knew the board failed AP Implementation 101. Several years ago The College Board required all schools desiring to name a course with the AP tag to submit their curriculum materials and other paper work in order to have the course approved. Of course, the way around this was to simply teach AP caliber courses but forgo the right to use the AP brand. The filing deadline had passed and no one was going to grease the wheels for Hoboken. Also, teachers running AP classes generally attend AP workshops before running their own class. So I assume all the curricular and course materials were submitted to the college board long ago and there are a raft of educators signed up for AP workshops this summer.

Why do you care? First Ammendment anyone?

Sorry to burst your bubble Red, but every articulate anti-KF person is NOT Petro.

Red, you supply endless hours of mirth with you Mr. MaGoo sleuthing.

Anyone else see a pattern here? It goes as follows: 
A) KF gets caught being anything but open, transparent, competent, etc... 
B) Bloggers/KF supporters put out attacks belittling the source of the initial report or ad hominem attacks on anyone who criticizes KF 
C) Said controversy hopefully recedes, and KF wins points among its committed followers for standing up to the forces "assailing them".

Anyone see a pattern here? The BOE comes up as a topic and the guy we fired for not doing what we paid him to do starts posting using multiple screen names from his home in Texas.

Sorry, I don't attack all non-KF posters, just those who ARE SUING THE BOE.

Anyone see a pattern here? The BOE comes up as a topic and the minute someone criticizes the witches of eastwick, a former BOE employee is blamed.

Well, you clearly don't know me either,but you live in a fantasy world in which you play the Omniciscient One. Now run over to the Occhipinti story and get to work! Beth Mason is going to try and buy another election.

Clearly, leafy,if you're not one of them then you must be the guy from Texas. We all know that KF rocks and there's only one person in the world who would dare to disagree with them. So, you must be him, and I must be him, and tburns must be him, and we all must be one.
Funny thing though, I was one of them, so I really don't know how I could be him, but surely one of them will explain it before the night is over.

Not to denigrate someone with a PhD but knowing about the AP exam or the IB program does not require anything special beyond a few well-coordinated neurons. Knowing that colleges and universities across the country have their own policies with regard to AP/IB credit, well, that's simply a click or two away on the internet, or maybe a person's personal experience from applying to college....the AP is not exactly a new testing program.

If you presume that that Texas guy is the only person who can write about educational minutae, then who's running the district?

Since you clearly like looking at my old posts Redrider, it was my husband who saw them at the game together. Didn't you find that one? Since you brought it up, don't you agree that it doesn't look proper for a sitting council person to accept free tickets right before the vote? But let's not get into that. This is a BoE article and since you have no problem with the Sobolov family being on the dole I'm sure you have no problem with Zimmer affiliated council people being comfy with a developer. Again, exactly why I tossed away my green shirts.

Troll....ouch.

And I'm not sure how contributing to a discussion about the AP and IB can possibly be equated with an attempt to sell fertilizer. And just to drive a wedge into the "you're that guy from Texas", I happened to prefer the AP to the IB, but simply because I think Americans are more familiar with it and I bleed red, white, and blue. I figured you would have picked that up in my nit-picking over education minutae.

Ok, so it's not technically nepotism, but you have to admit that with so many relatives feeding from the public trough, Ms. Sobolov can't step out of line.

I am still waiting for the information regarding the number of IB exams that HHS students sat and the resulting scores - part of the data upon which the decision to scrap the IB program in favor of AP should have been made. Not full diplomas but certificates. I don't favor one over the other but I am wondering what the change was based upon considering there has been a significant investment of time and money in IB over the years.

perhaps the Board should supply that data rather than bloggers--- I'm sure that data must have been gathered before a decision was made.

You can be sure the data was gathered before the decision was made...look how carefully Mitchell examined bringing in the AP program before announcing it would be in the schools this year.

PP- I watch Channel 77 all the time, that's how I found out who shep is.

Thank you, Passkey. My son took the second part of the Mathematics IB exam at HHS today. That exam included problems in Trigonometry, Calculus, Geometry, Probability, Functions, Algebra and Statistics. Whether or not he receives a certificate, I know that he has received a broad and strong foundation in Mathematics and will be well prepared for college-level math courses.
I really have no strong preference in the IB vs. AP debate. I DO know that the IB classes require a great amount of work. They are challenging even for academically motivated students. And in addition to family, social and extra-curricular demands on their time, many HHS students are also employed. To hold the number of students who received a “full IB diploma” as the criteria upon which the IB Program is judged is utterly unrealistic. Was the switch to AP based on relevent data or personal preference? If more students have access to and are successful in honors level classes through the AP program – wonderful. The idea is to prepare students for the world beyond Hoboken High.

tb, Found out that there have been many, many IB certificates at HHS. Apparently, anyone involved with IB in the district knows this. As I said, AP/IB is not the issue. This was simply another example of the board saying what they had to---so they could do what they wanted to.